All in Wonders

[Ender]

Does the All in Wonder have s-video in? If not, is the a card that does? Or, if so, is it the only card? And, is it worth it to get one? Inquiring minds do indeed need answers. Pronto. *chop**chop*

[M4LFUNCT10N]

Well, you can always use an s-video to RCA adapter. But they are on the pricey side ($21), and all it is is a little plug.

But looking at the info on the ATI's site... I can't quite tell. That purple adapter that plugs into the back shows RCA's which happen to be offset towards one side, and it looks like there is an S-Video plug on the left... but can't quite tell. Above each RCA it looks like there is text imprinted on the adapter. Above the blank space it looks like there is text printed there too, but really hard to tell.

Check out the pictures and see for yourself.

Pics (http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=14-102-297-06.jpg/14-102-297-05.JPG/14-102-297-04.JPG/14-102-297-03.JPG/14-102-297-01.JPG)

**edited price, Radioshack has finally lowered the price on the adapter**

[Ender]

Well there's definately an S-video on there, most cards have them, but is it an output or input? As far as I am aware all s-video connections are programmed one way or the other...or am I wrong about that? It'd be sweet if I was, cause my vid card has s-video...

Anyhow, I guess I should say why I would care about such a thing. I have video footage on a camera that is not digital and I need to put it on my computer so I can edit it. :)

[M4LFUNCT10N]

well, the card does not have s-video. Those are mini-DIN ports, same connector as s-video, but different. The purple thing that plugs into the din is what I was talking about. It "appears" to have s-video, but it's really hard to tell. What time do you have class tomorrow? I know I ran into you in the afternoon.... I'll bring my s-video to RCA adapter(works in both directions). You can borrow it indefinately. I don't think I'll ever have a use for it. My old laptop had an S-Video output so I needed it then, but this one has an RCA out.

[DiscoDave]

There's a seperate purple box (you can see it on newegg pictures) that has video inputs. Included is S-Video In.

[Ender]

really? sweet! :erm: I'm talking to both of you. :)

So another question...ATI makes All in WOnders for every model no? So I could get an old 9000 or something and save some money (I refuse to get a 9800 ;) - no not really, but I seriously think that something really really cool is right around the corner in the video card department, and if I can swing it, I'm likely going to get the latest and greatest when whatever that is proves itself...prolly with the 64 bit cpu from amd too...reasons and methods for obtaining such things to come. When they come out and I get them.:))

However, since M4L has that nifty lil thing that should work with my card, I think I'll just borrow that and see if it works! :woot: Prepare for LAN footage!


M4L: I have class in Baker Hall from 2:45-3:50...I'll be there a tad earlier and hang out a tad later to meet you by the vending machines if you can.

[M4LFUNCT10N]

I've got class at 3:00-5:00. So really any time during or before should work. Just give me a call or send me a text message on my cell when you want me to leave class. My phone is on silent and people are always leaving class to answer their phones. It's pretty relaxed :cool:

Cell: xxx-xxxx

[Ender]

cool...since I don't have a celly anymores, how about meeting up at 2:30?

[M4LFUNCT10N]

Could we do it when you are leaving class instead? I'll be finishing up my homework at 2:30. :p

[DiscoDave]

Originally posted by Ender
So another question...ATI makes All in WOnders for every model no?
No...but they do have several variations, the cheapest being around $100 for a used card.

Check newegg and mwave. I don't think the rca/svideo converter will do you much good, though..they'll all have svideo in, and your current card (I don't believe) has any sort of input capabilities, but of course you'd probably know better than I.

[Ender]

rofl...seeings how you were the principal owner of the card and prolly did lots of review before buying it? :p I would say you would know better than I! ;)

[DiscoDave]

Originally posted by Ender
rofl...seeings how you were the principal owner of the card and prolly did lots of review before buying it? :p I would say you would know better than I! ;)
This would probably be true if I had average memory retention skills. Or even "below average". But you forget...I have "I can't remember the way back home" memory skills.

[Ender]

Originally posted by DiscoDave
This would probably be true if I had average memory retention skills. Or even "below average". But you forget...I have "I can't remember the way back home" memory skills.
:rofl:

[Ender]

Originally posted by M4LFUNCT10N
Could we do it when you are leaving class instead? I'll be finishing up my homework at 2:30. :p

K, I get out at 3:50 and I'll stick around till 4:00 :)

[Ender]

So, hardware guru's, in your honest opinion (in other words no try not to be biased as much as you can):

Would it be worth it to get an ATI All in Wonder 9800 Pro at this point in time?

Lemme tell you why I want it or something like it. First off, I really don't need that s-video in that much. Basically I only need it to get the footage from the last LAN and get it on my computer. I intend on using a digital camera in the future (though I'm still not sure how I'll be doing that ;)) so once this footage is on my computer there won't be much need for s-video in.

However I do need a new video card. I plan on (not sure about this either, but I have the psychology of winning damnit! :mad: ) getting a monstrous upgrade for my computer soon, which will entail pretty much the latest and greatest. Why? I just got into video editing and I'll tell you what; I thought my computer was pretty friggin' beefy and cool but the limited editing I have done so far has proven that it isn't. Editing chuggs on my comp and I don't have the patience for that for one, but I really want better quality in some of the videos I'll be making. My computer can't take running some of the programs I run right now simultaneously (which is necessary) so I need something that can hack it.

What thinkest all of ye?

[Excessive]

You just need the capture card to get it onto your comp. right? Then the PC does all the work. If in the future you need to upgrade your card for gaming you will need to pay more for another all in wonder card right? I would think it would save you money in the long run to get a PCI capture card. and a good AGP card for gaming. That way when you upgrade your card for gaming you still have a capture card and do not have to spend that money again. It also gives you the option for setting up dual monitors. Something that could help your productivity right?

From what I have been led to understand, Video editing is a CPU intensive operation. Which means that your video card has little to do with it once it’s on the PC.

EDIT:
Have you looked at the USB video capture devices?

[Ender]

hrmm...a capture card...didn't know there were was such a thing! Does the All in Wonder not have a second monitor option? I thought I saw a dvi output...

Anyhow while the editing is mostly a cpu intensive process capturing ingame footage is too. But rendering games is both cpu and video card. The better the video card the better the graphics right? That leads me to believe that the better the graphics card the less work the cpu needs to do which frees it up for capturing processes making the capturing better. Even if that isn't the case, a better vid card gives me better graphics and I'd like to be able to have better graphics captured.

Tell me more about this, capture card...

[M4LFUNCT10N]

Remember the days when all video cards were PCI? People would run dual video cards to increase their gaming. The popular choice was to run dual Voodoo2's for some insane gaming. Capture cards work nearly the same way. They run in a PCI slot and work in conjunction with your video card. If you plan on doing continuous upgrades, or you have the money, the best thing to do is to get a video capture add on. Video capture has changed very little over the years. Almost no changes at all in the past 5 years. Video cards have changed and will change. For this reason 2 cards are always better than one. But usually more expensive.

Now for my unbiased opinion. I REALLY hate to say this....

Get a Mac. Nothing beats the Mac in this department. And the few things that will, cost sooo much it's just not worth building/buying. Although, if I remember correctly, Alienware builds a computer specifically for video editing.

[Excessive]

A capture card is simply a card that has video inputs.

You need to take a good look at that card. Just because a card has 2 outputs does not mean that you can use dual monitors with it. You may be able to, but only see the same thing on both screens. ;)

Games require heave graphics card use because everything is drawn "on the fly". Playing pre-recorded video does not require much.

I have not done any capturing of video yet. But I would imagine that some cards can capture at higher resolutions and more frames per second than others. You should probably look at that. Having faster hard drives can help too. Raw footage takes up a lot of space. Faster hard drives will help you access all that info faster too.

I guess if it were me, I would ask myself. Do I want a dual use device that does both jobs ok? Or do I want two devices that do what they do great? And like I said before, If you go with the spendy all in wonder you will have to spend more next time you upgrade for games too.

I would talk to somebody that has more experience. And ask them what they would look for in a capture card

If you’re going to do a lot, go for the fancy card. But if it was I and I was only doing it occasionally I would go with a card like this ALL-IN-WONDER VE (http://www.ati.com/products/radeon7500/aiwve/).

[Ender]

Originally posted by Excessive
A capture card is simply a card that has video inputs.

You need to take a good look at that card. Just because a card has 2 outputs does not mean that you can use dual monitors with it. You may be able to, but only see the same thing on both screens. ;)

Well, it just a picture and I didn't look at it that closely. But for example, my gaming rig video card has dvi output which looks like what I saw on the back of that ati in the picture. The card came with an adapter and then you can plug a separate monitor into it. The card recognizes a separate monitor and asks you if you want to go dual screens and then you can configure how they work. It's pretty nifty actually. :)


Games require heave graphics card use because everything is drawn "on the fly". Playing pre-recorded video does not require much.

Most of the editing I'm doing right now is in game footage. Only two games that I know of allow you record the game as you play it and not have any effect on your fps: wc3 and any UT game (the 2k4 demo doesn't have that option but the retail will for sure). In the case of those games then I can record with their in game options and then edit later and get the great quality I want.

However with games like DC (or anything BF) and rvs (which allows you to record the demos same as unreal but no way to view them) have to be captured as your playing them. In other words, I have to capture the footage I want while my computer is already hard at work rendering the game itself. The capturing is very intensive by itself, and capturing prerecorded stuff isn't a problem. But I need something that can capture and render at the same time with high quality.


I have not done any capturing of video yet. But I would imagine that some cards can capture at higher resolutions and more frames per second than others. You should probably look at that. Having faster hard drives can help too. Raw footage takes up a lot of space. Faster hard drives will help you access all that info faster too.

Yeah, faster hard drives are definitely one of the key components. In high school I learned that scsi drives were the fastest..is that still true? I notice that they're hella expensive still...


I guess if it were me, I would ask myself. Do I want a dual use device that does both jobs ok? Or do I want two devices that do what they do great? And like I said before, If you go with the spendy all in wonder you will have to spend more next time you upgrade for games too.

Yeah I think I m4l had a good point in having a capture card and a vid card. I'll have to start looking at some.


I would talk to somebody that has more experience. And ask them what they would look for in a capture card

If you’re going to do a lot, go for the fancy card. But if it was I and I was only doing it occasionally I would go with a card like this ALL-IN-WONDER VE (http://www.ati.com/products/radeon7500/aiwve/).

I prolly will be doing a lot in the future. I'm really getting into this and the more I do the more I want to do. For now I'm doing nothign but ingame stuff (see that video I posted earlier...it was my second). The reason I want the capture card is cause I want to make a video from our last LAN which I have on a non digital video camera.

I intend on getting a digi cam, but that will likely be a long time down the road...unless the quality from the one I'm using now is just so crappy I'll have to scream and get some money somehow. :mad:

[DiscoDave]

Originally posted by Ender
In high school I learned that scsi drives were the fastest..is that still true?
Yeap. The difference isn't as significant as it used to be, but yea.

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Ender
Well, it just a picture and I didn't look at it that closely. But for example, my gaming rig video card has dvi output which looks like what I saw on the back of that ati in the picture. The card came with an adapter and then you can plug a separate monitor into it. The card recognizes a separate monitor and asks you if you want to go dual screens and then you can configure how they work. It's pretty nifty actually. :)




What I meant was, some cards have both digital and analog output. But not all support displaying diferent info on each output at the same time. So on some cards you would only see the same desktop on two monitors. and not be able to take advantage of windows expanded desktop. Read the specifications on the card before you assume anything from the ports.

[DiscoDave]

It should probably be noted that if you want super-fast hard drive speeds, RAID is the way to go. :rup:

[M4LFUNCT10N]

SCSI RAID!!!!!! A couple of 15,000 RPM drives with 350MB/sec transfer speeds and 4ms seek times. That would be awesome.

[SuperDude]

i say anything over 8000 rpm is a bomb waiting to go off =)

[Dr. Deezee]

Bwegh, my harddvire is still below 7000 RPM I think. >_<

[Ender]

Originally posted by DiscoDave
It should probably be noted that if you want super-fast hard drive speeds, RAID is the way to go. :rup:

ah so that is what RAID is for! I've always wondered! Well I may have to go that scsi route then... :)

[Ender]

Originally posted by Excessive
What I meant was, some cards have both digital and analog output. But not all support displaying diferent info on each output at the same time. So on some cards you would only see the same desktop on two monitors. and not be able to take advantage of windows expanded desktop. Read the specifications on the card before you assume anything from the ports.

roger that good buddy. I've used the dual monitors before :rup: it friggin rocks, esp for this kinda stuff. :) I look forward to doing it again! :woot:

[DiscoDave]

Originally posted by Ender
ah so that is what RAID is for! I've always wondered! Well I may have to go that scsi route then... :)
RAID is sorta multi-purpose. The main theme is treating two hard drives as one. (Or 4 hard drives as one, in some cases).

That can be used either for super-secure data storage (ie, a "free" backup hard drive that's constantly mirrored), or for super-fast use (ie, a data file is stored half on HD1 and the other half on HD2, and when the data is recalled, they both access the halves simultaniously taking half as long.....in theory, anyway...it can give around a 50% performance boost in RW use).

[TOOGAM]

All In Wonder is a family of video cards. No, ATI doesn't make one All In Wonder for every regular video card they make. The basic definition of All In Wonder is that it is a video card ATI makes that not only captures video (capture card), but also outputs (like a standard video card). ATI All In Wonder (ATI AIW) cards exist for PCI and AGP (haven't seen any mention of them as ISA cards). I originally got a multi-purpose TNT2 video card which was AGP, but recently bought a PCI All In Wonder that I haven't tried yet. AGP may be able to give a bit better capture performance, but then I'd have to worry about capture ability any time I upgrade my video card.

The successor to AGP, called PCI Express, is just around the corner. So are video capture cards that can capture at higher resolutions (HDTV).

Video capturing doesn't need a lot of polygons per second, so therefore you may not need the latest video card to get the best performance. Look for resolution (at least 704x480 for NTSC systems) and frames per second grabbed (at least 30).

If you want to capture footage from a PC Game, you're probably not going to be wanting to use a video capture card on the same PC as the PC playing the game. Doing so just doesn't seem beneficial to me, compared to using video capture software. Seek out a Camtasia demo.

If you're doing any video editing, make sure you can use a lossless codec for any non-final edits. The most common is HuffYUV. If your CPU is faster than your hard drive, it may be beneficial to compress the video stream before saving it to the hard drive (use a codec while capturing). When distributing files, you may wish to make them lossy (smaller). DIVX is now legal and a popular choice. Microsoft's codecs may be better (I don't run WinXP so I can't make files that use WMV version 9). In general, I suggest trying to use AVI (which is a generic format. DIVX, a specialized format, uses the AVI generic format), as AVI can be read by pretty much anything.

I do like VirtualDub, but it is really only good for editing AVI files. Official releases of the newer versions of VirtualDub cannot handle ASF and none of them can handle Microsoft's newer formats (WMV, maybe ASX). Capturing in VirtualDub is limited to using the Video For Windows standard, whereas some newer video card drivers now only support DirectShow capturing.

SCSI used to be way superior to IDE. But IDE was way cheaper to make. Solution: Manufacturers improved IDE to make IDE faster so that it was comparable, or even faster than SCSI. That was some time ago, maybe SCSI got faster again, I dunno what the latest speed comparisons are. I stopped paying attention ever since I heard IDE got improved.

So the rest of this message is stuff I'm less knowledgable about.

I think I heard some time ago that SCSI has some advantage with RAID (like, I think typical RAID might have required SCSI), but I'm not sure about that. I just go for IDE (being budget-minded).

RAID, as said above, can be multiple things. Originally, from what I was exposed to, RAID was for backing up all data on a second hard drive at the same time it is used on a first hard drive, for redundancy. (Called mirroring the drive.) More recently, I was exposed to the acronym JBOD (my friend's motherboard manual documented this feature), which is "Just a Bunch Of Disks", which apparently allowed one logical partition (one drive letter) to span multiple disks. So I guess RAID just means using multiple disks at once.

I'm feeling way too tired/lazy right now to be looking up the URL's for ATI (ati.com), Virtualdub (VirtualDub.SourceForge.Net), HuffYUV 2.20, what the acronym RAID stands for, etc.

[ghrogels]

wow dude, im impressed with that vast knowlage of videocards, you must be a real PC-junkie, eh?

[Tha[\]atos]

so far everything I've heard about RAID is compleat. There are a few details left out that I can fill in with.

RAID 1, also called mirroring and duplexing, is basically takeing the data written to one disk and writing it to one or more other disks at the same time. should one drive in the array fail just replace it and the data will be automatically replacated to the new disk

RAID 0, also called striping, the data is broken down into blocks and each block is written to a separate disk drive. this increases greatly increases read time and access time. This form of RAID has no redundancy to protect data, if one drive dies all data is lost. (there is still some data on the other drive but it may not be compleat and cannot be accessed easally if it is)

RAID 5 combines striping with mirroring such that each drive shares half it's data with one other drive such that as long as there is only one drive failure in the aray the array can be rebuilt. This form of raid requires at least 3 drives and has the performance increase of raid 0 and the reliability and failsafes of raid one. should one drive in the array die the replacement drive will be repopulated from the two remaining drives.

IDE RAID controlers are usually only capable of RAID 0 or RAID 1 (though I think I have herd of a RAID 1.5 which is supposed to be like RAID 5).

there are other forms of raid but I am not familiar with them. More information can be found here (http://www.acnc.com/raid.html)

SCSI drives tend to be faster partially because the drive speeds are faster. I don't know why, but the fastest seagate ide drive is the baracuda which spins at 7,200 rpms where the cheata (their fastest SCSI drive) spins at 10,000 rpms. so that has a lot to do with read/write speeds.

[Ender]

back to ATI real quick, am I going to notice a huge difference in graphics in game if I have a 9800 all in wonder vs a 9800 xt?

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Tha[\]atos


SCSI drives tend to be faster partially because the drive speeds are faster. I don't know why, but the fastest seagate ide drive is the baracuda which spins at 7,200 rpms where the cheata (their fastest SCSI drive) spins at 10,000 rpms. so that has a lot to do with read/write speeds.

Actualy some drives spin at up to 15,000 rpm. :eek:

[DiscoDave]

Originally posted by Ender
back to ATI real quick, am I going to notice a huge difference in graphics in game if I have a 9800 all in wonder vs a 9800 xt?
9800 XT is about 10%-15% faster than 9800 Pro, which is faster than the vanilla 9800.

I'm not sure which 9800 the All in Wonder is based in.

[TOOGAM]

Originally posted by DiscoDave
9800 XT is about 10%-15% faster than 9800 Pro, which is faster than the vanilla 9800.

I'm not sure which 9800 the All in Wonder is based in.

There are numerous All in Wonder models, surely some of which predate the 9800.

I just have to wonder... by what logic did somebody in the computer industry decide to use "XT" to mean "Faster"?

[Ender]

But I want to know how the AIW 9800 compares to the other 9800's!!!! :cry: ;)


btw, I picked up two seagate cuda's 200gb each 8mb cache 7200rpm ultra ata 100...and yes those will be raided.

If I understand it right:
Raid 1 I will only have 200gb of space, but if one fails I've got a backup
raid 0 I will have 400gb of space but if I lose one I lose both.

That right?

[Airstotle]

Originally posted by Ender
btw, I picked up two seagate cuda's 200gb each 8mb cache 7200rpm

What are you gonna do with your old HD?;)

[Tha[\]atos]

the only differnece between a 9800 and a 9800 aiw is the aiw has the extra aiw features. other than that their the same card.
Oh yeah, and the aiw cost an arm and a leg more :tongue:

[SuperDude]

Originally posted by Ender
But I want to know how the AIW 9800 compares to the other 9800's!!!! :cry: ;)


btw, I picked up two seagate cuda's 200gb each 8mb cache 7200rpm...and yes those will be raided.

If I understand it right:
Raid 1 I will only have 200gb of space, but if one fails I've got a backup
raid 0 I will have 400gb of space but if I lose one I lose both.

That right?

RAID 0 ROCKS, nearly twice the read/write speed. I think if ur gonna be doing vid editing and stuff u should go with that.

So what if a drive dies and you lose all your videos, theyre all crap anyways ;) JK

[DiscoDave]

Originally posted by Ender
But I want to know how the AIW 9800 compares to the other 9800's!!!! :cry: ;)
Find out if it's an AIW 9800, AIW 9800 Pro, AIW 9800 SE, or an AIW 9800XT.

Simple!



:erm:

[Ender]

oh..didnt' know you could get aiw in pro xt etc...I thought it was just aiw. :shrug: Now I know! :woot:

And airstotle, sorry 'bout the hdd...it's already been spoken for.

[DiscoDave]

Originally posted by Ender
oh..didnt' know you could get aiw in pro xt etc...I thought it was just aiw. :shrug: Now I know! :woot:
I don't know what variations there are either...just figure out what chipset it's based on, and that's how fast the video card will be. An AIW 9800 Pro will be exactly as fast as a Radeon 9800 Pro.

[Ender]

rgr that. :rup: