Video Cards

[Airstotle]

I fear I am just not savvy enough (yet) when it comes to decent equipment...I currently have an MSI GeForce 4 4200 ti 64mb video card - which I like and have never had any prblems with. It has never been OC'ed and frankly I don't think (for the applications/games I use it for) I will or even need to.

That being said - I am beginning to consider a possible upgrade (not that I feel like I have to, as much as I want to), but I am not willing to throw a ton of money at it. Therefore....

Open for discussion, please inform me as to what you would do, if you had $80 - $100 to upgrade your VC from what you (I) already have to......

Give me the brand, price, reasons why and a link to the card itself (like a newegg or pricewatch link etc.) please.

Or tell me why you wouldn't upgrade :tup:

I now open this thread up for constructive discussion.

I should probably point out that I have a MSI KTV4 mobo and run an Athlon XP 2600 CPU with 768 PC2700 RAM. Therefore don't send me to cards that would potentially be incompatible.

[Maddeh]

I'm in the same boat as you, and the only vid card upgrade I would consider is the 6600 GT (AGP), which was recently released. I think they're close to $200. Should have a 256mb version, that's what you want.

I wouldn't consider ATi at all (even though that's what 90% of those here will recommend probably), unless you enjoy wasting your time fiddling with drivers and crap.

[SuperDude]

So far I havn't had any problems with ATi. Yeah the 6600GT is a great card, awesome performance for a cheap price. I would suggest saving money up to get one. Or if you really want a card now get a 9800 Pro. I got mine for 180, but the 6600GT owns it. the 6600GT beats the 9800XT in performance and cost.

[Expunge]

Keep the Ti4200 Airstotle, it's a great card to be honest. I also dont think that 100 dollars would get you an upgrade, unless you find a sweet deal on a used 9700 Pro or something (Very unlikely)

Another thing: If you save up another 100 bucks for a 6600GT it would be a semi-worthwhile upgrade for you, unfortunately it wont make as much of a difference as you might hope. The ATi X700 @ 200 dollars would not be a good choice at this price point either as the 6600GT pretty well has it beat in all games except HL2. Gah, spending money on computers just seems like such a waste to me now. If it's unplayable at medium detail, it's time for a new card. If you can break 60fps at medium detail, why bother? Basically if you want to see a heavy performance increase you're going to need to plunk at least 300 dollars. As for compatability issues, your KT4 Ultra will run any AGP videocard currently on the market.

ATi comment:
I wouldn't consider ATi at all (even though that's what 90% of those here will recommend probably), unless you enjoy wasting your time fiddling with drivers and crap.
You know it goes both ways Paul.

There is just as much "fiddling" with both brands' drivers that I am well aware of (Certain cards in particular). On several discussion forums I frequent there is allways talk of which drivers to use with certain games, and it spans both sides to quite a depressing amount. As for fidding with the cards otherwise, I really dont see what you're getting at. Other than overclocking there isn't really much to fiddle with. Your claim that "all your friends" have problems with ATi videocards is great and all, but I know plenty of people who have NVidia videocard problems. You know what else? A large majority of the time when these brand name switches are made during a major system upgrade because of a previous problem with X part from X brand where X brand gets the blame for the whole system being unstable while it's quite likely that it was not to blame, nor was it thoroughly checked for. Bandwagoning a brand (imo) is quite lame, and also happens to be a logical fallacy. Just because one card (or line of cards (NVidia FX line)) is utter crap, absolutely does not mean that the entire brand is garbage. Bandwagoning good hardware based on thorough personal review and a collection of several accredited reviews is the way to go. Everybody likes X card because X card is good, not because X card is produced by Y company. This certainly doesn't stop with videocards either, it goes right down the line. Motherboards, hard drives, monitors, etc. Look at the features and the benchmarks, not the brand name.

See sig: That is a good card. I think it's a good card because it receives the best benchmarks on several accredited reviewer websites, not because of the sticker on the fan.

[DiscoDave]

I agree, you're not going to do much better for $100.

[Stupid]

I also had a 4200 (now fears) and liked it alot but i just recently upgraded to a 5800 and it works pretty good, but its over $100 (around $130 i think)
just fyi

[Shadow]

Oh Darn, if I wasn't probably buying a new rig I would have sold you my 5700 and upgraded myself.

[Maddeh]

Bandwagoning good hardware based on thorough personal review and a collection of several accredited reviews is the way to go.

lol, this is exactly what I've done.

I've owned the following:

GeForce 2MX
GeForce 2 GT Ultra
GeForce 3 Ti200
GeForce 4 Ti4200

I've used them both with AMD systems (2400, 2500, 2600), and pentium systems (p3 and celerons). Asus, MSI, and Soyo motherboards. Enermax and Antec power supplies. Kingston, Corsiar, Crucial, and generic rams.

The most 'fiddling' I've ever had to do, to make it work smoothly (not overclocking or trying to get better framerates, just getting the drivers installed and getting proper performance for the card out of all my games) is this:

Uninstall old driver
Reboot, letting vga save driver load
Install new driver

Works on all my games, every map, smooth framerates every time. Simple.

Meanwhile, there are dozens of threads on ProU UT discussion that are bitching about problems with ATi. Ender ran an ATi and got awesome framerates on all but one map. Wtf. You tried to run an ATi with an Antec power supply and lo and behold, problem.

I don't care if one card has better benchmarks than another, I care about whether or not I can play my games without getting pissed off. I also care about ease of use. In my experience, Nvidia has satisfied both of these requirements hands down.

For a user like Air, I think ease of use is an important aspect to consider, hence why I recommend Nvidia (though I freely admit I recommend Nvidia to everybody). If your experienced advanced user, who truly enjoys messing around with the components to get the absolute best performance, then ATi may be for you.

[DiscoDave]

*loves my 9800 Pro*

[SuperDude]

me too

[Ender]

*loves my 9800 Pro*

Even though it isnt really. ;) gg_saphire bwuahahaha


I wouldn't say Maddeh is bandwagoning at all, he's speaking from his experiences with the majority of people he's come across. It's the same with any company in any business, Chevy vs Ford etc. Maddeh hasn't had any problem with nvidia, but he's seen and heard of my problems with my 9800, and of others as well. That is a pretty valid arguement imo - just because toms hardware can make an ATI bench higher than an Nvidia doesn't mean it's going to be a smooth ride.

and yes FeaR, you are right - it goes both ways as I have known people with problems with nvidia. But in my case, and in Maddeh's, we've seen more issues with ATI than nvidia.

Hence, my recommendation would be something nvidia as well. However, don't bother with anything that has "FX" attached to it - as FeaR noted - because that entire series was utter crap, unless you get the 5950 Ultra, which is still upwards of $300.

I would say this to you - keep getting your money out of your card now. Your card runs all the games that you have and play, so play them more and get the money out of that card.

When new games come out and you're playing them and it just doesn't look good anymore then it's time for a new one, practically speaking.

I would say to you what I have been trying to say to myself, but I just won't listen - hopefully you do and save yourself some time and money. ;) And that is this (as said to myself, just replace my name with yours and you get the idea): "Listen, Ender - dude, you don't play your games enough to warrant blowing money on an upgrade. At best you get a couple nights a week, and your system now runs everything just fine. There's no need to upgrade unless you either start playing more and can justify the use of the high end stuff, or new games come out that won't run on your existing sytem (and this takes quite some time). So just play with what you have and enjoy it. If you happen across a bunch of money you don't need, then go ahead, but realistically, just play and have fun. :)"

Unfortunately, the side of my head that makes the decisions (which disque has pointed out as being passionately passionate and emotional, among other things ;)) doesn't really give two craps about what the logical side of my head has to say, so when my tax return comes in, I'm upgrading baby!

[jinx666]

Unfortunately, the side of my head that makes the decisions (which disque has pointed out as being passionately passionate and emotional, among other things ;)) doesn't really give two craps about what the logical side of my head has to say, so when my tax return comes in, I'm upgrading baby!


HELLOOOOOOOOO EARNED INCOME CREDIT! OH YEAH! *DANCES* :tup:

[Farvneho]

unless you enjoy wasting your time fiddling with drivers and crap.
Or fiddling with crappy drivers that get updated once a blue moon.

[Expunge]

lol, this is exactly what I've done.

I've owned the following:

GeForce 2MX
GeForce 2 GT Ultra
GeForce 3 Ti200
GeForce 4 Ti4200

I've used them both with AMD systems (2400, 2500, 2600), and pentium systems (p3 and celerons). Asus, MSI, and Soyo motherboards. Enermax and Antec power supplies. Kingston, Corsiar, Crucial, and generic rams.

The most 'fiddling' I've ever had to do, to make it work smoothly (not overclocking or trying to get better framerates, just getting the drivers installed and getting proper performance for the card out of all my games) is this:

Uninstall old driver
Reboot, letting vga save driver load
Install new driver

Works on all my games, every map, smooth framerates every time. Simple.

Meanwhile, there are dozens of threads on ProU UT discussion that are bitching about problems with ATi. Ender ran an ATi and got awesome framerates on all but one map. Wtf. You tried to run an ATi with an Antec power supply and lo and behold, problem.

I don't care if one card has better benchmarks than another, I care about whether or not I can play my games without getting pissed off. I also care about ease of use. In my experience, Nvidia has satisfied both of these requirements hands down.

For a user like Air, I think ease of use is an important aspect to consider, hence why I recommend Nvidia (though I freely admit I recommend Nvidia to everybody). If your experienced advanced user, who truly enjoys messing around with the components to get the absolute best performance, then ATi may be for you.
Ok, so exactly how much experience do *you* have with ATi cards, honestly? How many unbiased reviews have you read about ATi? Ever considered even trying one? I'd wager that you've probably never even owned an ATi card. As for installing drivers: Same process with ATi. When I switched back to ATi recently all I had to do was uninstall the NVidia drivers, shutdown, plug in the 9800, boot and install the ATi drivers. No problems whatsoever. Also, I might add that there are no doubt several posts on the Pro-U forums about UT running on NVidia hardware. I find it very common for people to point the finger at drivers and/or certain vendors hardware causing them troubles, when in fact the problem lies in a completely different area. Both sides suffer from this problem, and I've seen plenty of "Which drivers do I use for my ATi/NVidia card?!? I've tried them all!!!" threads.

Oh and btw, the 9800 Pro issue was due to the (I believe bunk) power supply. Card works great with the Enermax :tup:

Having second thoughts about selling the powersupply to you Nate, as I'm quite convinced that it is becoming garbage. However if you still want to give it a try I would be quite willing to return your money if you find that it doesn't work out.

If you think NVidia cards are better because they are more stable, I believe you are either turning a blind eye, or are woefully ignorant on the subject. Both brands have issues, both brands have their setbacks, and I dont believe either of these brands are as perfectly stable (or unstable) as you may claim because no driver software or manufacturing process is perfect.

[SuperDude]

Yeah I spent years with Nvidia, I just tried an ATi card and see no reason to go back. =)


<3 ATi

[ghrogels]

my Geforce4 MX 440 just wasn't doing it for me, so I switched to ATi. Now I'm happy!

[Ender]

If you think the PS is bunk FeaR, then just give it to me and buy my Enermax off me. ;) I could use a free PS and some extra cash. ;) $35?

Here is my new request - quit talking about it. This is just a pissing contest comparing the cards. Madman will never buy ATI and FeaR will continue to get mad that Maddeh can beat him in UT with an inferior hardware setup. ;):p (joking there - trying to lighten the mood an all y'know)

Give Airstotle you're opinion, point him to reviews and articles, tell him your experiences, and stop arguing with someone else about their experiences etc.

I gave air mine already, but I'll summarize one more time to get this thread back on track: Air, your comp plays the games you play now just fine, so until a game comes out that you can't run on your computer, don't worry so much about upgrading and work on getting your wife to let you play more. ;) (this goes for me - somebody better stop me because I'm likely to blow my entire tax return...FX51 chip here I come! ;))

[Expunge]

Purposeful ignorance pisses me off, sorry.

Spending money on computer: Stupid stupid stupid.

Dont do it, and let your wife know you're holding back. I'm sure she'll think higher of you. I'm done spending rediculous amounts of money on my computer, even though it's basically the only thing I do with my life :\

[Dr. Deezee]

Yeah I was thinking about upgrading for Christmas, then I was like "wtf my comp runs everything great already." Depending on how things are looking by PAX/PDX, though, I might consider an upgrade.

anywho, if everything runs fine on your system, $100 ain't really gonna get you anywhere meaningful. Just save it or use it elsewhere.

I've found that RAM can make a huge difference on performance (not neccessarily in game, but just in general), so if you don't have a gig of RAM I'd actually reccomend spending 100 to get there. But then again I'm a silly n00b. ;)

[Maddeh]

Ok, so exactly how much experience do *you* have with ATi cards, honestly?

I currently own a 9200 SE that I got for free, and I hate it. Some stupid desktop menu pops up every time the computer starts, even though I have checked 'disable this display on startup' or whatever. Also have had to reinstall drivers several times due to issues.

I also have experience trying to help others with their ATi cards. I tried to help out Ender with his, both with the Terra problems and some other stuttering he was having. I helped a kid at a lan party I went to last spring whose 9600XT went to crap suddenly.

How many unbiased reviews have you read about ATi?

A few, Anandtech, Tom's Hardware, and thegrommits + Ghosts posts about ATI over at leetllamas.org. All unbiased.

Ever considered even trying one?

I had at one point, but I doubt that I will again. I can't say for sure.

I'd wager that you've probably never even owned an ATi card.

lol thread owned (see above).

As for installing drivers: Same process with ATi. When I switched back to ATi recently all I had to do was uninstall the NVidia drivers, shutdown, plug in the 9800, boot and install the ATi drivers. No problems whatsoever. Also, I might add that there are no doubt several posts on the Pro-U forums about UT running on NVidia hardware. I find it very common for people to point the finger at drivers and/or certain vendors hardware causing them troubles, when in fact the problem lies in a completely different area. Both sides suffer from this problem, and I've seen plenty of "Which drivers do I use for my ATi/NVidia card?!? I've tried them all!!!" threads.

I have never contradicted this statement, I have only stated what has been my experience, and my opinion. I find it amazing that you've taken this so seriously when all I've done is make a recommendation to Air (and by your defensive stance, do I take that to mean you don't agree with my recommendation?)

Oh and btw, the 9800 Pro issue was due to the (I believe bunk) power supply. Card works great with the Enermax :tup:

Is that why the 9600 and the Ti4200 worked with the Antec? :confused:

Purposeful ignorance pisses me off, sorry.

Lamest thing you've ever posted.

[DiscoDave]

Purposeful ignorance pisses me off, sorry.
Then why do you think Maddeh should make decisions based on your experiences vs. his?

Do you think your experiences are somehow more valid than his?

Don't get me wrong, I love ATI, and I eagerly look forward to making fun of Enduh's next card should he get an nvidia (and believe me, I do), but I think you need to pay more respect to opinions that disagree with your own.

Just because Maddeh disagrees with us doesn't mean he's "wrong".

[Verbal]

lol you guys are such silly newbs. FeaR is pretty much right guys, seriously. I fix and build computers as my job, and BELIEVE ME, at LEAST 50% of video card errors are because of user errors in the past. Did you get a used video card? Guess what guys, you get what you pay for. It's most likely not going to function like a brand new card from either brand. I've seen hundreds of both nVidia and ATI cards come back with problems, and most of the time it's either an instance where the error lies between the keyboard and the chair, or it's just a fluke. Neither brand is better, they both have good products and they both have faulty products. They never come off the press exactly the same, so there's no reason to say one company is better than the other. Every single card will be slightly different.

And I agree with everyone else Aaron, save your money =) I think Deezee is right, and RAM is a good investment... most people don't think that there's much of a performance difference, but the less you can utilize your page file the faster stuff will run. :cool:

[DiscoDave]

lol you guys are such silly newbs. FeaR is pretty much right guys, seriously. I fix and build computers as my job, and BELIEVE ME, at LEAST 50% of video card errors are because of user errors in the past...
One of us is not understanding what FeaR is saying.

[Verbal]

One of us is not understanding what FeaR is saying.

I said he was pretty much right, then I went off on my own tangent. =) Overall I somewhat agree with him though. :cool:

*hides from this thread*

[Expunge]

I currently own a 9200 SE that I got for free, and I hate it. Some stupid desktop menu pops up every time the computer starts, even though I have checked 'disable this display on startup' or whatever. Also have had to reinstall drivers several times due to issues.

The 9200 is a piece of garbage. You cant honestly think that something you got for free is going to perform to your standards. Again, just because one card sucks, does not mean the entire brand does.

I also have experience trying to help others with their ATi cards. I tried to help out Ender with his, both with the Terra problems and some other stuttering he was having. I helped a kid at a lan party I went to last spring whose 9600XT went to crap suddenly.

Those problems were sound driver related.

A few, Anandtech, Tom's Hardware, and thegrommits + Ghosts posts about ATI over at leetllamas.org. All unbiased.

Ok, so you've read two review websites, and posts from two people...


I had at one point, but I doubt that I will again. I can't say for sure.

Which card? When? Again, one bad card does not mean the entire brand is bad.

lol thread owned (see above).

Yeah you sure got the whole ATi experience with a free budget card. Which I might add had additional features cut (Hence the "SE" tag at the end of the model number) Also, that card was not designed for any type of gaming whatsoever. The 9200 can hardly push CounterStrike (Quake 2 Engine) and is usually an onboard card for motherboard system builders meant to be placed in an office computer. I suppose you could make an educated review of the 9200's performance in MSWord however.

I have never contradicted this statement, I have only stated what has been my experience, and my opinion. I find it amazing that you've taken this so seriously when all I've done is make a recommendation to Air (and by your defensive stance, do I take that to mean you don't agree with my recommendation?)

I agree whole heartedly with your recommendation, but your reasoning for the recommendation is what I am in dissagreement with. Brand bandwagoning is bunk.

Is that why the 9600 and the Ti4200 worked with the Antec? :confused:

Yeah, until it began to fail... Remember me crashing out multiple times during matches? Yeah, that was the power supply going south. (I was using a Ti-4200 at the time I might add, and before you say it: No, nothing was overclocked.

*Edit for stupidy, quoted in Dave's post below anyway*

[DiscoDave]

I'm sorry you dissagree with my stance on unbiased product reviews.
Stop being a jackoff please.

Maddeh has his own opinions based on his own experiences. Considering he manages a gaming cafe full of computers, I'd say it's pretty foolish of you to try completely disregarding his experience or questioning his "biases".

He's been completely upfront that these are his own personal opinions based on own experiences and research.

The only one trying to make definitive statements regarding matters far beyond their reach is you.

[Expunge]

Then why do you think Maddeh should make decisions based on your experiences vs. his?

Do you think your experiences are somehow more valid than his?

Don't get me wrong, I love ATI, and I eagerly look forward to making fun of Enduh's next card should he get an nvidia (and believe me, I do), but I think you need to pay more respect to opinions that disagree with your own.

Just because Maddeh disagrees with us doesn't mean he's "wrong".

Readers digest: What I'm getting at here is the use of logic involved with brand name selection. Having a bad experience with one object does not mean the group from which the object came is inherantly bad. It would be like saying Adolf Hitler was an evil person, therefore all humans ever created are evil. When it comes right down to it, it's illogical, and incorrect. However if you wish to prefer one brand over another, I'll respect that (Dave and Maddeh) because that is your opinion and I cant change that. What I can do is show you the logic you are using to make this decision (Or any decision really), and why or why not that logic is valid.

Quite simply, my experiences are greater in number. I spend literally hours every day reading messageboards and product reviews about computer hardware. But that's beside the point, hardware ownership (Not just spending 30 minutes looking at someone elses computer and blaming the videocard) is where real product knowledge lies. Obviously someone with more real ownership experience is better suited to speak of a brand name, and that is something I have. In this specific case I do believe my experiences are more valid. Comparing a 9200SE to (anything really) is obviously not a fair comparison to any sort of gaming videocard. That thing was meant to be integrated into a motherboard, or put in the AGP slot of an MS Office machine.

Never said his opinion on all NVidia cards was "wrong". I merely point out that his reasoning behind his brand prefrence is slim to none. Basing your review of an entire company based on a single (non-gaming) desktop card (Emphasis: non-gaming) is quite wrong imo. (Ok, I'll give you your two ATi problems with 2 users on some tiny messageboard hidden within the deep recesses of the internet) I've had my fair share of problems with ATi, and I've also had my fair share of problems with NVidia, but I'm not going to let past experiences with different hardware cloud my perception of a brand name. Everyone has faults, and nothing is perfect.

In addition: I do not push the ATi brand name, if you think that is so then I have missworded my previous post and created a misunderstanding. I have recommended NVidia cards (not the brand in it's entirity) to several people (perhaps even hundreds, considering how many message boards I frequent) looking for a videocard for a specific purpose. If I see someone having problems with their X brand hardware component I'm not just gonna walk up and say "Oh crap dude, get that X brand component out of your rig and replace it with Y brand immediately! That brand is a piece of crap!" I see this all the time, it's ignorant, and quite frankly, really lame. Notice this differs from specific component recommendations. "That 9200SE should not be used for gaming, perhaps you shoud replace it with something in the 100-150 dollar videocard range. Here are some links to X product VS. Y product which match your price range, and as you can see, this product gets better reviews here, here, and here. Therefore, this product would be better suited to be in your computer." However if you wish to tarnish the reputation of a certain card (Ender's 9800 for instance) because of an issue you have, go right ahead. Dont confuse one product with an entire brand while you do it. Just make sure you've isolated all other possible causes for the problem, be it a bad windows install, improper driver selection (Both brands have bad and good driver revisions for all different types of games), other computer hardware (Hello soundcard and powersupply), and driver issues with those other hardware problems. One case in particular that I've run across (Well actually, I've seen this case (and several very similar cases) several times) involved some guy screaming that his NVidia card refused to work, no matter how many different driver revisions he used. (Other cases have involved ATi too, they're all over the place) After RMA'ing his card several times, and reformatting windows several times on top of that, he found his problem to be lack of proper motherboard drivers. Most dont even get this far, they just RMA the card, reformat, and install another brand. "Oh hey, I got an X brand videocard and now my system works again, I'm never buying from those morons over at X again!" Perhaps these people should point the finger at themselves before they point the finger at someone else. User error (regardless of brand) is, I believe, the leading cause of malfunctioning hardware.

So yeah. :\

[Expunge]

Stop being a jackoff please.

Maddeh has his own opinions based on his own experiences. Considering he manages a gaming cafe full of computers, I'd say it's pretty foolish of you to try completely disregarding his experience or questioning his "biases".

He's been completely upfront that these are his own personal opinions based on own experiences and research.

The only one trying to make definitive statements regarding matters far beyond their reach is you.

My thoughts clarified in above post.

[DiscoDave]

Readers digest: What I'm getting at here is the use of logic involved with brand name selection. Having a bad experience with one object does not mean the group from which the object came is inherantly bad.
Certainly not, and I've seen nothing from Maddeh to indicate that he thinks it always does. However, bad experience from one object DOES increase the chances that more items in that group are bad. If you take a jelly bean from a jar and it tastes awful, the chances of the next jelly bean you take tasting awful are higher than if the jelly bean you tried tasted awesome. It doesn't necessarily mean the next jelly bean will be awesome or awful, just the chances.
But that's beside the point, hardware ownership (Not just spending 30 minutes looking at someone elses computer and blaming the videocard) is where real product knowledge lies. Obviously someone with more real ownership experience is better suited to speak of a brand name, and that is something I have.
How many computers have you owned? How do you think that number would compare with Maddeh?

Anyone wanna take bets on this? ;)
Basing your review of an entire company based on a single (non-gaming) desktop card (Emphasis: non-gaming) is quite wrong imo.
Ahem. My laptop has a 9000, and I can play most games (including UT2k4) fine, as long as it's plugged in. (Although it seems it's not a great performer when running on the battery ;))

Additionally, if you open up ATI's website, click on "Products", and "Gaming", guess what you'll see included. Could it be...a 9200?
but I'm not going to let past experiences with different hardware cloud my perception of a brand name.
lol. I bet you're eagerly awating Intel's next graphics chipset. Sure, the chipsets they've released have all been...well...pointless, but you're not the type of guy to let past experiences with different hardware cloud your perception of a brand name. Right?

In addition: I do not push the ATi brand name, if you think that is so then I have missworded my previous post and created a misunderstanding.
Oh, we have a misunderstanding, alright. This isn't about what brand you are or aren't recommending. I push ATI, Maddeh pushes nVidia...it's that I'm able to disagree with him without disrespecting him, he's able to disagree with me without disrespecting me, while you seem to be trying to disrespect everyone.

I worked in computer tech support while I was going through college, and people constantly commented that I was a lot better than the other techies. It took me a while to figure out why...it wasn't because I knew more than the others (and in fact, many knew more than I did)...it was because I knew enough without being a jackass about it. The trend with people who know a lot about computers is they're usually jackoffs about it.

So, I ask you again.

Stop being a jackoff, please.

[ghrogels]

this is getting worse then past political threads, peoples. Clean it up or else: BANDNATIONDATED.

[Expunge]

Certainly not, and I've seen nothing from Maddeh to indicate that he thinks it always does. However, bad experience from one object DOES increase the chances that more items in that group are bad. If you take a jelly bean from a jar and it tastes awful, the chances of the next jelly bean you take tasting awful are higher than if the jelly bean you tried tasted awesome. It doesn't necessarily mean the next jelly bean will be awesome or awful, just the chances.

According to this analogy, I would stay away from jellybean flavors that I do not prefer. You dont like the pineapple flavor of X brand jelly bean? Fine. Doesn't mean that you should automatically dismiss every other flavor in the bowl.

How many computers have you owned? How do you think that number would compare with Maddeh?

Anyone wanna take bets on this? ;)

Of identical configurations I would wager he has me beat. As for unique systems, that would be debateable. Not to mention the number of computers (unique) that I have built those those in my immediate family, their friends, and my own personal friends would greatly exceed what he has done.

Ahem. My laptop has a 9000, and I can play most games (including UT2k4) fine, as long as it's plugged in. (Although it seems it's not a great performer when running on the battery ;))

The Radeon 9000 is a far superior card Dave. It offers twice the memory bandwidth (128bit memory bus, as opposed to the 9200se's 64but memory bus), twice the graphics memory (Comparing the ATi reference models), and nearly 50% more core clock speed.

Additionally, if you open up ATI's website, click on "Products", and "Gaming", guess what you'll see included. Could it be...a 9200?

Well going by this logic you could also click Home/Office and find the X850 line, as well as every other card ATi makes. I suppose the X850 would be a great card for office applications then. Point is: While the 9200 may be technically called a "Gaming" card, it does a terrible job at it, and thus would be a bad evaluation of ATi gaming cards. I might also add that the 9200 is located at the bottom of the page, but I'm sure there must have been no thought to product order in mind when they made the page right?

lol. I bet you're eagerly awating Intel's next graphics chipset. Sure, the chipsets they've released have all been...well...pointless, but you're not the type of guy to let past experiences with different hardware cloud your perception of a brand name. Right?

An Intel graphics chipset and the Intel brand are two very different things. Even so, an Intel integrated graphics chipset would work fine for what it's intended for: An office computer.

Oh, we have a misunderstanding, alright. This isn't about what brand you are or aren't recommending. I push ATI, Maddeh pushes nVidia...it's that I'm able to disagree with him without disrespecting him, he's able to disagree with me without disrespecting me, while you seem to be trying to disrespect everyone.

While it was not my original intention to do so, I am sorry that I was so immature to let that occur. I appologize.

I worked in computer tech support while I was going through college, and people constantly commented that I was a lot better than the other techies. It took me a while to figure out why...it wasn't because I knew more than the others (and in fact, many knew more than I did)...it was because I knew enough without being a jackass about it. The trend with people who know a lot about computers is they're usually jackoffs about it.

The purpose of me explaining my experience with computer hardware was not to demean anyone else's knowledge on the subject, nor to be arrogant whatsoever. It was to help illustrate my opinion on brand names.

So, I ask you again.

Stop being a jackoff, please.

While I may have gone as far to say that I dislike another's purchasing descisions; I did not go as far as to personally attack anyone, even once in this thread. Through direct personal attacks, nor implied meaning.

My final thoughts/opinion: Buying one brand rescritively is (imo) wrong. Buying the best product (When adequetely compared to the competition) is the way I believe it should be done. The posts made above were intended to illustrate that point, and some of the content in them did indeed stray from my point, and for that I apologize.

[DiscoDave]

According to this analogy, I would stay away from jellybean flavors that I do not prefer. You dont like the pineapple flavor of X brand jelly bean? Fine. Doesn't mean that you should automatically dismiss every other flavor in the bowl.
But it does mean that if you've had a jelly bean from another jar and thought it was great, the logical choice is to take your next jelly bean from the jar you liked. The chances are better of liking a jelly bean from the jar you liked vs. the one you didn't like, wouldn't you agree?

[Expunge]

But it does mean that if you've had a jelly bean from another jar and thought it was great, the logical choice is to take your next jelly bean from the jar you liked. The chances are better of liking a jelly bean from the jar you liked vs. the one you didn't like, wouldn't you agree?
Yeah but what if your friend tells you that Brand X changed the jellybean recipie? I think you would try them again.

[Ender]

Yeah but what if your friend tells you that Brand X changed the jellybean recipie? I think you would try them again.

I sure as hell won't. :mad:

[Maddeh]

Just to clear a few things up:

I don't nor have I ever used the 9200 for gaming. I won it, brand new in a retail box, for kicking ass at UT2003. It was worse than the card I already owned obviously, so I put it in the ut2k4.goodgameogc.com server since all it would need to do there is basic graphics display. I still hate the card, for the reasons I stated above.

Buying one brand rescritively is (imo) wrong.

I don't get why you think I do this. I don't restrictively buy only one brand. I stated above I couldn't say for sure if I would consider an ATi card. I did say I wouldn't consider it at this point, but not for time and all eternity.

You just don't seem to get where I'm coming from, and as far as you insinuating that I'm ignorant when it comes to computer hardware, that is a personal attack as far as I'm concerned. Considering computers is the main aspect of my business, I would think you would have a little more respect for me than that.

In any event, this thread has basically degraded to semantics with a stubborn personality. You can continue this thread by yourself if you so desire.

[Airstotle]

ummmmmmmmm sorry to open Pandora's Box here. Airstotle's recap - Don't upgrade not worth it. Got it. Done deal. :tup:

[Ender]

I hope you're happy. :mad:

;)

[Airstotle]

I hope you're happy. :mad:

;)

Oh shut up Utah boy. :slant:

[Ender]

Just givin' ya a hard time...come play games with us. :) Or at least get on ventrilo.

[Excessive]

Even though it isnt really. ;)
Unfortunately, the side of my head that makes the decisions (which disque has pointed out as being passionately passionate and emotional, among other things ;)) doesn't really give two craps about what the logical side of my head has to say, so when my tax return comes in, I'm upgrading baby!

I can't wait for tax returns. I get profit share from work in March also. But I think the computer will have to stay the same. Looks like all the cash will go towards moving expenses. First month, last month, and deposit. :( But I'm sure looking forward to being on my own again. Sitting at home with the radio cranked at 3AM, playing games in my underwear. :confuina: Did I just say that out loud?

[Dr. Deezee]

ummmmmmmmm sorry to open Pandora's Box here. Airstotle's recap - Don't upgrade not worth it. Got it. Done deal. :tup:
maybe get some RAM go? :D

[Expunge]

Just to clear a few things up:

I don't nor have I ever used the 9200 for gaming. I won it, brand new in a retail box, for kicking ass at UT2003. It was worse than the card I already owned obviously, so I put it in the ut2k4.goodgameogc.com server since all it would need to do there is basic graphics display. I still hate the card, for the reasons I stated above.



I don't get why you think I do this. I don't restrictively buy only one brand. I stated above I couldn't say for sure if I would consider an ATi card. I did say I wouldn't consider it at this point, but not for time and all eternity.

You just don't seem to get where I'm coming from, and as far as you insinuating that I'm ignorant when it comes to computer hardware, that is a personal attack as far as I'm concerned. Considering computers is the main aspect of my business, I would think you would have a little more respect for me than that.

In any event, this thread has basically degraded to semantics with a stubborn personality. You can continue this thread by yourself if you so desire.

I'm sorry, and I apologize.