Alternative Endergies

[Itsmeee]

I've been thinking a lot on this topic lately. From forcasts given by many scientists our current raw source will probably run out within the next 60-80 years. This will leave us lanpartyless in that amount of time which is tottaly unexeptible to me. What are your guys ideas?

[SuperDude]

Hopefully i will be dead and carefree. Im sure we will have mastered fusion power... we will be able to power the entire city of LA off of one bucket of seawater for 1 day. we will just need to find new resources. In the event that the world becomes a wasteland.... people will think that maybe it would have been a better idea to actually work on perserving the world's resources. Oh no, its not about concervation.... its about money. Chop down that rainforest and make lots of it and dont give a damn about the future. We will continue to use gas powered cars untill the resource is depleted because the oil companies make the profit off of it. They have the money they can buy newer techologies and keep them out of the market. As you can tell i like bitching about the ignorance and carelessness of money greedy bastards. It makes me sick... ok enough is enough... /end rant

[Itsmeee]

interesting position. Any other ideas? I'm trying to create a non spam thread in the spam forum as some sort of spam against spam.

So anyway, I was originally going to make a joke with this thread but I'm a serious nuclear advicate. While I'm not sure many countries other then the top few could pull it off succesfully, usuing breeder plants combined with the nuclear plants I think could create a completly renewable and clean source of energy.

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Itsmeee
While I'm not sure many countries other then the top few could pull it off succesfully, usuing breeder plants combined with the nuclear plants I think could create a completly renewable and clean source of energy.

Having some experience operating Nuclear power plants, I'll tell you this. Its not a clean source of power. Sure you don't pollute the atmosphere. But there is no way to store all the solid and liquid waste produced in nuclear plants. At least not a way to store them long enough. Eventualy they make their way into the environment. Thats one reason why its been decades since a civilian Nuclear power plant has been built in the US.


I predict the US will not be the leaders in Nuclear power. To many people are afraid of it here, and there are too many alternatives to it in the US.

[PyroInsane]

Ive got one for ya... make giant huge solar power plants in Arizona and other uber sunny places aroudnt he US, infinite energy fo lyfe!

[Itsmeee]

I suppose. Eventually too we would run into a problem with breeders as they do produce more fuel then they use so we actually would end up with to much fuel in the long term.

I heard a form of the debunked cold fusion was up again? Anyone know anything about this?

[Excessive]

Originally posted by PyroInsane
Ive got one for ya... make giant huge solar power plants in Arizona and other uber sunny places aroudnt he US, infinite energy fo lyfe!

Actualy you are better off building the solar cells in space and then use satelights to beam the energy to where it needs to go with microwaves. There is never bad weather in space. ;)

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Itsmeee
I heard a form of the debunked cold fusion was up again? Anyone know anything about this?

Still a myth. No way to release that much energy without producing heat along with it.

[Tha[\]atos]

one wonders why we can't grind up the nuklear waste and mix it with the tailings of the mine from which the nucklear fule was obtained (to aproximately the same ratio) and just put it back in. you wouldn't be polluting because the radioactive levels in the soil would be about the same. (of course there could be some major flaw with this idea, I'm not a nuklear scientist.)

solution for the breader reactors... use the extra fule to power normal reactors.

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Tha[\]atos
one wonders why we can't grind up the nuklear waste and mix it with the tailings of the mine from which the nucklear fule was obtained (to aproximately the same ratio) and just put it back in. you wouldn't be polluting because the radioactive levels in the soil would be about the same. (of course there could be some major flaw with this idea, I'm not a nuklear scientist.)

solution for the breader reactors... use the extra fule to power normal reactors.

To answer you first question. That would be similar to trying to mix the exhaust from your car with the gas from your gas tank. When you split an atom you are left with stuff that is totaly different than what you started with.

And for the second question. Although you can get fuel from breader reactors you still don't solve the problems of waste products from the power plant.

They are trying to hollow out a mountain in Arizona or one of those hot dry states to store radioactive waste. The problem is some of the waste will be dangerous for 10,000 years. They cant make containers that will not leak for that long yet. so it will eventualy get into the ground water. In the end they are just pushing the problem on to future generations.

[Tha[\]atos]

the first comment was to take the leftovers from extracting the fule (the normal dirt that now has no radioactive material in it) and mixing it with the waste at the same ratio as that of fule to ore. the ratio of fule to ore is quite low which is why we don't need shielding from the earth it's self. if we mix the waist with enough dirt we reduce the radiaation level of the resulting mixture to normal (safe) background levels. then you just stick the dirt in the depleated mines and burry the last couple hundred feet with led lined concreet so the public feels happy. (again I'm not a nucklear scientist so there may be some gapeing flaws in this theory. I just wanted to clarify what I meant.)

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Tha[\]atos
the first comment was to take the leftovers from extracting the fule (the normal dirt that now has no radioactive material in it) and mixing it with the waste at the same ratio as that of fule to ore. the ratio of fule to ore is quite low which is why we don't need shielding from the earth it's self. if we mix the waist with enough dirt we reduce the radiaation level of the resulting mixture to normal (safe) background levels. then you just stick the dirt in the depleated mines and burry the last couple hundred feet with led lined concreet so the public feels happy. (again I'm not a nucklear scientist so there may be some gapeing flaws in this theory. I just wanted to clarify what I meant.)

The waste products include poisonious chemicals. Which would leak into the water system. and some of the particles are as small as a pin head. But still powerfull enough to rot your arm off if they somehow found their way onto the sleave of your shirt. Mines fill up with water and eventualy they crack. Releasing masive amounts of radiaoctive material into the environment. The waste we create is much worse and more concentrated than what is found in nature. And cannot be diluted. Dilute it and now you have that much more radioactive waste you have to store.

The only solution I see is in finding a cheap, safe way to send heavy objects in space and sending all the waste far far away. But thats years away from happening.

[Itsmeee]

Biomass plants from what I've read show a very temporary solution to the fossil fuel problems. Pretty much you can burn humans, to roadway, to trees to your little dog fluffy to create energy for a town or gas for a car.

[night3218]

ill probably lose interest in PC gaming by the age of 50 so after that im fine..:D

[PyroInsane]

Originally posted by Excessive
Actualy you are better off building the solar cells in space and then use satelights to beam the energy to where it needs to go with microwaves. There is never bad weather in space. ;)

True.. but still, its always sunny in Arizona!

Although, thats not bad idea... but, what about the microwaves? is that an effictive form of energy trandfer for it? or will we lose energy in the process, things to consider.

[Blitzkrieg84]

When I took my Envrionmental Studies class at WWU, the professor showed a video on alternative fuels. One of the things it stated was that if 90% of the U. S. had solar panels on their roofs, it could supply power for the entire world. The main problem with this and any other alternative fuel source is cost effectiveness. Right now, a photovoltaic cell runs around $2000 for a four feet section. For a house application, that is battery storage, pv cells and wiring; it could run into the $20000 range. Another problem with PV cells is that is only 20-25% efficient right now, meaning only 25% of the cell converts solar energy to electricity. Wind energy is another alternative, and I think it will become very big in the coming years, especially in the plains regions. It is cheaper and easier to construct. All you need is wind and a propeller that drives a turbine. Then there is Geo-Thermal energy, which is basically the Earth creates steam which drives turbines which creates electricity. Iceland is primarily run on this power, something like 85-90%. Wyoming could be a huge exporter of this energy.

But alas, the main problem with any alternative fuel source is control. Who will control the production of energy? Think about it. If everyone in the country puts a PV cell and a wind mill on their house, companies like Puget Sound Energy and Bonneville Power Administration will be rendered redundant. Why pay for someone to supply you with electricity when you can supply your own? This is such a quagmire of a topic that it will severe repercussions either way we look at: economically, politically and socially. Anyways, this is a very interesting topic and don't think that it will pass you by or that you will be dead by the time you have to worry about it. This will be a very important issue in the next decade, especially as our need for foreign oil(i.e. from the Middle East) is greatly increased.

[PyroInsane]

Well said, for a n00b :P

j/p

I still vote for big solar plants in Arizona. but one plant itself woul prolly cost voer $2billion =X

[Stumanji]

Pyro, if we were to fund those solar plants in Arizona, how the hell are we supposed to afford invading another country?

[Tha[\]atos]

Why pay for someone to supply you with electricity when you can supply your own?

because the weather could be such that you generate less power than you use over a period of time and you need to supliment that somehow. however if everyone put solar panels on their roofs the energy companies would become responsible for ensureing redistrobution of excess power to those who need it. (and yes even if you have batteries charging you can still produce enough solar power to run the meeter backwords, and what happens when your batteries charge by noon?

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg84
When I took my Envrionmental Studies class at WWU, the professor showed a video on alternative fuels. One of the things it stated was that if 90% of the U. S. had solar panels on their roofs, it could supply power for the entire world. The main problem with this and any other alternative fuel source is cost effectiveness. Right now, a photovoltaic cell runs around $2000 for a four feet section. For a house application, that is battery storage, pv cells and wiring; it could run into the $20000 range. Another problem with PV cells is that is only 20-25% efficient right now, meaning only 25% of the cell converts solar energy to electricity. Wind energy is another alternative, and I think it will become very big in the coming years, especially in the plains regions. It is cheaper and easier to construct. All you need is wind and a propeller that drives a turbine. Then there is Geo-Thermal energy, which is basically the Earth creates steam which drives turbines which creates electricity. Iceland is primarily run on this power, something like 85-90%. Wyoming could be a huge exporter of this energy.

But alas, the main problem with any alternative fuel source is control. Who will control the production of energy? Think about it. If everyone in the country puts a PV cell and a wind mill on their house, companies like Puget Sound Energy and Bonneville Power Administration will be rendered redundant. Why pay for someone to supply you with electricity when you can supply your own? This is such a quagmire of a topic that it will severe repercussions either way we look at: economically, politically and socially. Anyways, this is a very interesting topic and don't think that it will pass you by or that you will be dead by the time you have to worry about it. This will be a very important issue in the next decade, especially as our need for foreign oil(i.e. from the Middle East) is greatly increased.

I too think wind energy will be big in areas that can support it. The problem is getting the permits to put them on your land. Because there will always be asshole neighbors who complain and file lawsuits about loosing thier view. In most situations wind may not be able to support you 24/7/365. so you supplement yourself with normal power from the grid. But when you produce more than you need the power company pays you or gives you a credit on your bill.

[Itsmeee]

Originally posted by Tha[\]atos
what happens when your batteries charge by noon?

My guess is that one set of batteries would charge while the rest ran the house. I can't see this happening though until houses are more automated with a centeral server controlling things.

solution for the breader reactors... use the extra fule to power normal reactors.

I believe Breeder plants convert what normal plants use and convert it to weapons grade platonium which is one of the draw backs as they produce more then they use, you'd end up with stores of this wich could be bad in some countries.

Excessive what sorts of dangerous stuff do breeder plants create? I've been trying to find info on it but come up empty.

[Excessive]

Certain Isotopes of uranium are more usefull than others depending on the use. I never had any direct training in breeder plants but they somehow help create the more useful types. They can be used to help create weapons grade materials or materials needed for power plant fuel cells.

This is one of the reasons for tensions between the US and North Korea. They have some breeder plants that they would not let inspectors in. The say because they do not want to let others see their technology they use. The US claims its because they are using them to create weapons grade materials.

[Blitzkrieg84]

because the weather could be such that you generate less power than you use over a period of time and you need to supliment that somehow. however if everyone put solar panels on their roofs the energy companies would become responsible for ensureing redistrobution of excess power to those who need it. (and yes even if you have batteries charging you can still produce enough solar power to run the meeter backwords, and what happens when your batteries charge by noon?

Yes this is true, but it isn't the point I am making. When the entire country goes off the grid for 8-12 hours a day, billions of dollars will be lost to companies that had complete local monopolies. But I agree that we need a system in place that makes sure that there is power for when people need it.

[Blitzkrieg84]

what happens when your batteries charge by noon?
My guess is that one set of batteries would charge while the rest ran the house. I can't see this happening though until houses are more automated with a centeral server controlling things.

Current set-ups have a bank of batteries located in the basement/garage/cellar/etc., which provide power when the PV cells aren't generating anymore. The PV cells create more power than what is used during the day, and if you think about it, that is the time when you are at work/school/etc.

[Expunge]

In answer to Than's musings on Nuclear physics:

The reason why you cant "recycle" nuclear waste is because it's not Uranium anymore.

This can be modeled by this chemical equation:

n + 235-92 U --> [236-92 U] --> 141-56 Ba + 92-36 Kr + 3 n

Basically what happens here is a neutron is "shot" at a uranium atom, causing it to undergo nuclear fusion. (This is where the "boom" occurs in nuclear bombs). After this reaction takes place, the atom splits into several different chemicals, which can vary somewhat, but they are basically the waste of the reaction, and are highly radioactive. You'll notice that in the right side of the reaction equation that 3 more nuetrons are created, and they go off to react more un-reacted uranium, at a rate so fast that it makes a very good bomb. Now this is not the same kind of reaction that occurs in nuclear power plants, those are very well controlled. Uranium is formed into pellets and stacked inside fuel rods a little skinnier, and just taller, than a dime. The individual pellets are stacked inside these rods to several feet in length. Then the rods are arranged in large packs. As the uranium is reacted, special care is taken so that the reaction doesn't get out of hand, and kill everyone (nuclear meltdown) (Chernoble) The extreme heat created in this reaction is used to head steam, which is then in turn used to push a turbine, thus generating electricity. Each kilogram of uranium can release 9.0 x 10^13 Joules of energy, equal to the explosion of roughly 33,000 tons of TNT. This is due to the fact that the products and reactants of this equation are different... Yes, matter is destroyed. However, this amout of matter destroyed in this reaction is approximately .1% of the total mass. That just goes to show you how much energy is contained in matter.

Nuclear fusion in a nutshell folks.

From here I can conclude that since matter can be destroyed (converted into pure energy) that this is the ultimate fate of the universe. Assuming of course that the density of matter in the universe is high enough to pull all matter together under the force of gravity. All matter will be destroyed and converted into energy. Now this seems interesting... Since energy has no rest mass, it must travel at the speed of light, and through time dialation, time would never end. Now this is interesting.. What if god is made of energy? I'm going to make a new thread now.. rofl

[SuperDude]

Originally posted by Excessive
They are trying to hollow out a mountain in Arizona or one of those hot dry states to store radioactive waste. The problem is some of the waste will be dangerous for 10,000 years. They cant make containers that will not leak for that long yet. so it will eventualy get into the ground water. In the end they are just pushing the problem on to future generations. [/B]

I did a research thing on this last year. They have it hollowed out and will be using it for storage. The contaminants WILL leak out before they are safe and WILL pollute the watertable. Why does nothing be done about it??? HA because we will be dead and dont give a fuck about the future.

[Tha[\]atos]

another common current solution for storage of nuklear wastes is to burry them in a salt flat. the theory behind this is that the salt will crush and then encapsulate the waste until it renders itsself harmless (however long that takes).

my thoughts before involve trying to reduce the wastes into dirt in ratios measured in say parts per billion (or whatever is needed to make it safe) and to then put it back where it came from. the theory here (and I know it may not be sound... I just want people to understand it properly) is that it came from the ground safely so why can't it be put back. now this may be more a solution for disposal of weapons material (refined plutonium or whatever) but that's the basic idea.

there are many renewable sources (and if you think about it nuklear isn't one of them because you get the fule from the earth). you could go with solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, even tidal. although one of the more interesting ones involves useing tidal forces to pull a long wire taut perpendicular to the earth's magnetic field while in orbit so that the wire moving through the earth's magnetic field would generate electricity. (I think they're considering this for futer space stations)

[Itsmeee]

Originally posted by FeaR
In answer to Than's musings on Nuclear physics:

The reason why you cant "recycle" nuclear waste is because it's not Uranium anymore.

This can be modeled by this chemical equation:

n + 235-92 U --> [236-92 U] --> 141-56 Ba + 92-36 Kr + 3 n

Basically what happens here is a neutron is "shot" at a uranium atom, causing it to undergo nuclear fusion. (This is where the "boom" occurs in nuclear bombs). After this reaction takes place, the atom splits into several different chemicals, which can vary somewhat, but they are basically the waste of the reaction, and are highly radioactive. You'll notice that in the right side of the reaction equation that 3 more nuetrons are created, and they go off to react more un-reacted uranium, at a rate so fast that it makes a very good bomb. Now this is not the same kind of reaction that occurs in nuclear power plants, those are very well controlled. Uranium is formed into pellets and stacked inside fuel rods a little skinnier, and just taller, than a dime. The individual pellets are stacked inside these rods to several feet in length. Then the rods are arranged in large packs. As the uranium is reacted, special care is taken so that the reaction doesn't get out of hand, and kill everyone (nuclear meltdown) (Chernoble) The extreme heat created in this reaction is used to head steam, which is then in turn used to push a turbine, thus generating electricity. Each kilogram of uranium can release 9.0 x 10^13 Joules of energy, equal to the explosion of roughly 33,000 tons of TNT. This is due to the fact that the products and reactants of this equation are different... Yes, matter is destroyed. However, this amout of matter destroyed in this reaction is approximately .1% of the total mass. That just goes to show you how much energy is contained in matter.

Nuclear fusion in a nutshell folks.

From here I can conclude that since matter can be destroyed (converted into pure energy) that this is the ultimate fate of the universe. Assuming of course that the density of matter in the universe is high enough to pull all matter together under the force of gravity. All matter will be destroyed and converted into energy. Now this seems interesting... Since energy has no rest mass, it must travel at the speed of light, and through time dialation, time would never end. Now this is interesting.. What if god is made of energy? I'm going to make a new thread now.. rofl

see I told you ritilin would pay off :p

Seriously though very informative. Now where does the waste come in? Its the "spent rods", but does that mean they are just not producing enough energy to warrent there use?

[Excessive]

Originally posted by Itsmeee
see I told you ritilin would pay off :p

Its the "spent rods", but does that mean they are just not producing enough energy to warrent there use?

yes. also any particles in the coolant may become radioactive as they move through the core.

[Tha[\]atos]

what happened in Chernoble was a horrible accident but the cause was the stabelizer they used. they used graphite to stabelize the reaction. the graphite burnt up, the reactor melted. thankfully we use heavy water instead and don't have to worry about that cause of meltdown.

[Expunge]

Originally posted by Tha[\]atos
what happened in Chernoble was a horrible accident but the cause was the stabelizer they used. they used graphite to stabelize the reaction. the graphite burnt up, the reactor melted. thankfully we use heavy water instead and don't have to worry about that cause of meltdown.

Oh I assure you we do, without careful control of the nuclear reaction it will go out of control very quickly.

There are two types of nuclear waste:

High level waste and low level waste

High level waste encompasses materials directly involved with the reaction processes, such as radioactive fuel rods, reactor assembly, and radioactive atoms.

Low level waste is material that comes into contact with high level waste, this includes mainly radioactive suits/tools that personel use to handle radioactive material.

[Tha[\]atos]

I said we didn't have to worry about the cause of the meltdown not the meltdown itself. an example of us almost haveing a meltdown would be the 3 mile island event.

[Blitzkrieg84]

Why are we still talking about nuclear fission as a reasonable source of energy? The whole idea of alternative energy is that there is no/little waste or byproducts, which certainly isn't nulear energy. Hell, go swim in the water around Hanford or 3 Mile Island if you think it's safe.

[Itsmeee]

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg84
Why are we still talking about nuclear fission as a reasonable source of energy? The whole idea of alternative energy is that there is no/little waste or byproducts, which certainly isn't nulear energy. Hell, go swim in the water around Hanford or 3 Mile Island if you think it's safe.

Rab himself did, and hes...hmm....I see your point.

[Tha[\]atos]

as far as an alternative form of energy goes I can't wait for fule cell technology to become affordable.

[Itsmeee]

Originally posted by Tha[\]atos
as far as an alternative form of energy goes I can't wait for fule cell technology to become affordable.

indeed! For laptops they are predicting 10-12 hours of battery life I believe from a fuel cell. Refilling is the issue there though as well as there potential cost currently. Interesting to watch in the future though.

[PyroInsane]

Well, they can split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, then combine the two again to create more energy. Saw that one on Dave Chalks computer show, they had a little model car running off of one of these 'recycling' fuel cells.

[Tha[\]atos]

I don't believe that a "recycleing" fule cell is practical. the issue is that it takes more energy to seperate the water into hydrogen and oxigen than you get out by combining the two. also I was thinking of fule cells for cars more than laptops and cellphones but that would be great as well... as long as my cellphone doesn't blow up in my pocket :p

[night3218]

I did a big report in 6th grade about fuel cells. yup. forgot everything i learned. :)

[Expunge]

lol fuel cells in laptops. Brilliant plan, just hope that the steam doesn't fuck with your circuitry.

Pyro, you can recycle fuel cells as you say :P Combining hydrogen and oxygen is an endothermic reaction (meaning it takes energy). However, fuel cells would be brilliant if you could infinately reuse energy, too bad that's utterly impossible :P